AGNFL League

[agn]

Since ESPN will be out first, we should create a league with some dedicated players who can get through a season in a couple of weaks to see how it goes. Then once we get an idea of how it can work, we can get multiple leagues going, and then have championship matches for the winners. I'll supply the prizes for the winners.

We need commisioners for each league, any volunteers? Then we should pick teams and talk about rules.

[The_Focused_One]

Prizes...Well that's awfully generous of you Scot. I might have to consider it, too bad im doing schoolwork all summer, but if I can I will volunteer.

[BigEasyWhoDats]

i'll be a commish, its not a problem. i plan on getting the game the first day for my b-day, I got the Saints

[Shady45]

I'm gonna pass on this, and wait till you start a Madden League. I can be commish for that.

[Ruiz]

I'm getting mine the day it comes out. If ESPN comes with a two-month free trial I'll probably be on it from Day 1.

[imlittlexbitch]

I'm gonna pass on this, and wait till you start a Madden League. I can be commish for that.

Nobody asked U about fat ass madden.

[imlittlexbitch]

i'll be a commish, its not a problem. i plan on getting the game the first day for my b-day

I wanna play

[Digital*Firefly]

well if madden's not gonna be out til mid August, I'll probably buy ESPN and I'll play.

I'll take Detroit :D

[Sub-Z]

Is it too early to claim the Cowboys? Well I just did. :P

[Ruiz]

If we're doing unique teams, I call the Panthers.

[Raghnall]

yep, i'll have to wait until madden myself since i will be in baltimore for a week after espn is released.

[Goldeh]

Ill play in both an ESPN and Madden league, dun matter to me. Ill take the Bucs. :)

[chrisphil1724]

I'm in. ESPN is Xbox right? Madden is Ps2?

[Goldeh]

I'm in. ESPN is Xbox right? Madden is Ps2?

ESPN is XBOX. Im getting madden for xbox as well.

[InnerLogic]

i'll be in the league, I plan on getting the game. The $20 price tag also helps out :)

[Tulare]

I'm pretty sure I'll check the game out, but not till the 30th. Since that loser The Raven doesn't have the Xbox I know he can't claim my Texans. :razz:

[chrisphil1724]

I'm pretty sure I'll check the game out, but not till the 30th. Since that loser The Raven doesn't have the Xbox I know he can't claim my Texans. :razz:

Oh, He'll find away.

I don't know if making everyone pick different NFL teams is the best way to go, because you know someone is going to get stuck with a team they don't want. Most people would think "as long as it's not me I don't care" well, that's how leagues die.

[Sub-Z]

Heh I have been trying to get Raven to buy an Xbox since I got XBL, but he won't do it. He will get it for PS2 and be playing with himself. :lol:

[Tulare]

I'm pretty sure I'll check the game out, but not till the 30th. Since that loser The Raven doesn't have the Xbox I know he can't claim my Texans. :razz:

Oh, He'll find away.

I don't know if making everyone pick different NFL teams is the best way to go, because you know someone is going to get stuck with a team they don't want. Most people would think "as long as it's not me I don't care" well, that's how leagues die.

Scot did say something about mutiple leagues. If somebody does do a unique team league I'm in, playing Vs a the Eagles(or whoever the team of the momment will be on 2k5) 10 out of 11 games does get old after a bit.

[Raghnall]

[quote="chrisphil1724"Oh, He'll find away.

I don't know if making everyone pick different NFL teams is the best way to go, because you know someone is going to get stuck with a team they don't want. Most people would think "as long as it's not me I don't care" well, that's how leagues die.[/quote]

true, i would feel horrible for anyone who got stuck with the cardinals.

[Sub-Z]

I would feel more horrible if I got owned by somebody that was USING the Cardinals. :lol:

[Kscriv]

So we're not doing one of these for the PS2? Damn cuz I'm getting it the first chance I get provided it's still buget in Canada

[That Boi Ichi]

i call the Oakland Raiders.......for X-Box so people dont get confused.

[MageMasher]

I would like to join this idea...sign me up

[Octocamo]

I'd surely join. My brother would too (Titans 21 on G4. ESPN Fanboy now.)

Not that good as my brother though. I like the FPF of last years.

[chrisphil1724]

Oh, He'll find away.

I don't know if making everyone pick different NFL teams is the best way to go, because you know someone is going to get stuck with a team they don't want. Most people would think "as long as it's not me I don't care" well, that's how leagues die.

true, i would feel horrible for anyone who got stuck with the cardinals.

Yea, as would I.

[Lnin0]

Im in, got my copy for the Xbox pre-ordered with overnight shipping. Plus who could pass up a chance to play the legendary football genius that is AGN

[Th3iLLeST]

count me in

[The_Focused_One]

I got my 49ers!

[Carps]

I'd be interested in taking part in this Scot, perhaps in the role of a commish, if all is full than as my faithful Phily. Gimme an e-mail and we can discuss details....

[VC909]

I'll join. If we're choosing teams, I'll go with my loyal Packers.

[jiujitsu35]

I'm ready let me know when we start.I'll go with the San Diego Chargers.

[Sub-Z]

"Plus who could pass up a chance to play the legendary football genius that is AGN"

:lol:

[skinsfan]

i'm in.i'll take the redskins on the xbox.

[Hendrix]

Sign me up, I'll take my Vikings

:twisted:

[Blackwolf]

I'll join and take the hometown Falcons back where they belong.

The cellar.

[Gene Starwind]

Sure, I'll join.
I plan on getting it pretty soon since it's only $20.

I guess I'll go with the Colts, gotta go with the white QB. :D

Oh wait... what system is this for? I hope XBox...

[Kev5890]

Im in and i have Da Bears!

[Sub-Z]

I played BW last night and he isn't kidding!

[The_Raven]

I didn't feel like reading 4 pages worth of people saying im in. So I don't know if anyone said they would do it yet, but I don't mind making the PS2 league, if anyone is getting it for PS2 other than me that is. I think the leagues ARE unique teams, so I'll be the Bucs fo sho.

[frankthetank83]

i'm in too. i'll pick from any teams that are left over.

[BigEasyWhoDats]

yeah if we ever get it going

[Blackwolf]

I'd personally like to wait for the web interface to come up before trying to start a league in earnest.

[agn]

i am obviously into the Xbox league. I havent been enjoying the game though. I don't know if it's because of the number of madden games I played since the ESPN beta or what, but i hate the swiveling QB, and i hate the speed at which the players move.

[chrisphil1724]

We need commisioners for each league, any volunteers? Then we should pick teams and talk about rules.

I'll be happy to do it, I have some free time on my hands till sept. You can also get Sub-Z, or maybe Sole.

[chrisphil1724]

AGNFL ESPN 2k5 League Intro (http://www.idiot-gamer.com/games/AGNFL2k5.wmv)

I have rewrote the AGNFL Rules for ESPN Football and the new league. Read over them (Read team rules most of all) and post your feelings on them.

By: Scot Rubin (2003) Edit for ESPN 2k5 By: Chris Phillips (2004)

General:
1. 5 min Quarters
2. All-Pro level
3. Injuries – On
4. Fatigue – On
5. Subs – On


Season Play –

Season play will be 10 – 12 week (with playoffs). All teams that sign-up should be ready to play there FULL season regardless of there record.

Regular Season –
• Each team plays a 8 to 10 game schedule with no bye weeks
• Each team equal number of home and away games.
Playoffs –
• The number of playoff teams will be set AFTER the total number of teams is set. The number will be 25%-50% of the total number of teams.
• All playoff teams play in a single-elimination tournament to determine the two conference champions.
• The two conference champions play in the championship: the Super Bowl.


Running Up the score –

Despite the fact that it can drag a game on, I think scoring touch downs on any opponent is legal regardless of the score. Think of it as game speed practice for both teams. While I don’t think it’s very ethical, I don’t want to keep people from setting records in this league, but remember. As owners in this league you will be involved in social situations and if you have a league reputation of running up the score, people may work together to help shut you down.

**NOTE** Injuries will carry over from week to week. So if you’re up 28 in the 4th, you should think about put your back-ups in the game.

Dropping back Again you can run backwards 20 yards and still complete passes. I think 20 should be the limit but really a good defense should render this ineffective and with the league board, people will offer suggestions on shutting this type of play down. If coaches provide game recaps to provide “film” for other teams, you may want to limit your decision to avoid being labeled a cheese player. I also think that at the end of the first season League owners will vote on all owners with a rating, and if an owner gets a negative rating they can be put up to a removal vote. This allows us to keep a group of consistent players we enjoy playing with. People can find ways around rules that may not be so clear. The vote and rating of players will help make this a keeper league for years to come.

No Huddle Offense –

This is annoying when used too often. The computer doesn’t do a good enough job of tiring out your team when you go no huddle too often. I do believe it is a necessary strategy so it should be allowed but make notes about your games to provide warning to other players, and again if it’s too much you may be voted out of the league

Going for it on fourth –

Again this is an annoying play tendency that can be frustrating, but really if someone wants to go for it on 4th and 10 inside their own 20 they should do so at their own risk. First you can call the right D and stop it. Second your post game notes will alert others to their tactic and again the vote could remove a coach.

These rules will be reviewed each every 4 games. That will allow us to change relative to the way people are playing. Votes must be a majority to create change.

Clock draining –

This happens to be one of the few rules I think needs to be set. In a game when there are 15 minute quarters draining the play clock is necessary. In a 5 minute game, the play clock is ONE 6.6 of the whole qtr. That’s bogus. I think that since there is no way to change the play clock length it’s just something we need to deal with.

Defense –

I think any defensive tactics can be allowed before the snap

Audiles and substitutions can be made before the game, and anytime during the game thereafter.

Substitutions –

Players may substitute any players that they like.

Examples:
• TE as FB
• WR as RB
• WR as QB
• CB as WR
• TE as RB or FB
• WR as CB
• T as FB or TE
I have seen all of these substitutions in real NFL games so I don’t have a problem with them.

Onside Kicks –

As far as I can tell there aren’t any guaranteed onside kicks. I think that if you call the onside kick return you should be fine. Can they work sure, but I have seen NFL games that have actually STARTED with an onside kick, so any other time is not only appropriate, but at your own risk. I’ll take the ball at the 40. Put a guy with good hands and speed on your return team up front.

Teams –

EVERYONE will get a fair shot at the team they would like to use. However, not everyone will get the team they would like to use. As you sign-up for the league on the forums please list your top 5 or 10 teams. Examples

AGN
1. Patriots
2. Steelers
3. Ravens
4. Colts
5. Texans

chrisphil1724
1. Eagles
2. Ravens
3. Lions
4. Steelers
5. Dolphins

Sub-z
1. Cowboys
2. Steelers
3. Jets
4. Lions
5. Browns

If 3 players have the Patriots as there number one team then the commissioner will randomly draw one of the 3 names out of a hat and that person will get the Patriots. Let’s say AGN lost the Patriots, then he would go to his number two team The Steelers. If no one has The Steelers as there number one team then AGN would get The Steelers. However if Sub-Z did not get his number one team, then AGN and Sub-z would have a random drawing for The Steelers and the loser would move on to there 3rd team.

So should you pick 2nd 3rd and 4th teams that you like and you think the other players wouldn’t have that high so you have a better shot at them.

Trades-

All trade will have to be oked by the commissioner befor they can happen. This should less then 24 hours.

Pausing –

If a team pauses the game to avoid ending the game they will be immediately disqualified.

Can’t finish –

If a player cannot finish the game they must disconnect and allow the other player to finish the game against the CPU. The player then automatically gets the loss, the person finishing gets the win regardless of if they win or lose to the computer.

Stats –

Stats are kept track out by ESPN Football 2k5

Recording games –

If you are one of the few people that can take advantage of recording ability, I recommend preparing to record the playoff matches. This would be great to offer up online for others to watch. Also coaches can record matches to provide film scouting for other teams if they wish.

Other people playing games –

If you have someone else play a game for you, and we find out you will immediately be kicked out of the league, records erased and humiliated in a town square. Let’s keep it fair, legit, and fun.

[Gene Starwind]

Awesome job Scot and Chris, that's a really good rule book.
So when will the league be set up and would you like the rankings for our teams ASAP?

[chrisphil1724]

Could be in 2 hours, 2 days, or 2 weeks. First thing we have to do is name a commissioner. BamBam, was are last commissioner however, he can't run this league. I have been doing the Pre-season stuff as acting commissioner. The only other two people who could be is Sub-Z or SoleSurvivor because they have played in an AGNFL season befor. I'm all for doing it however we still need your guys feedback in the too. PLZ don't start with a team rankings a sign-up post will be made after a good number of poeple ok the rules.

[Gene Starwind]

You seem to be doing a pretty good job at it, why not take the full position of commish?

[chrisphil1724]

You seem to be doing a pretty good job at it, why not take the full position of commish?

I would be happy to do it, however we still need to get some others feedback on it. Scot, has left it in are hands.

[Gene Starwind]

I don't think anyone else in this would take the time to write out that besides Scot, so my vote's with you. I just hope it starts in 2 hours rather than 2 weeks, then Scot would quit because Madden will be out by then. :doubt:

[chrisphil1724]

That's the other thing.

How long should it be between games. 3 or 7 days?

[Gene Starwind]

I think 3 days might be better because of ever approaching Madden, but other people might think different. My vote goes with 3 days if I had to choose now, but it's not set in stone.

I personally can't afford Madden and won't get it when it comes out sadly, the only reas I got ESPN because it was $20. Hope Scot sticks around for the entire "season".

[Lnin0]

Sounds good but 3 days between games is a little tight. I like a week for each game and even when Madden comes out you'll be able to play it and still get in a game of ESPN a week.

When do we get started?

Xbox
Here are my team preferences:
1) Broncos
2) Panthers
3) Bears
4) Seahawks
5) Browns

[Hendrix]

I think we also need to specify which version we're all using as well. PS2 or Xbox.

Xbox

1. Vikings
2. Bears
3. 49'ers
4. Rams
5. Jags

I'm for playing twice a week.

[Blackwolf]

I'll do twice a week. That's fine with me.

BTW, gonna go ahead and do the listing thing. I've lived in Atlanta all my life, so don't think I'm choosing this team cuz of some injury prone quarterback...

Xbox
1. Falcons
2. Panthers
3. Jaguars
4. Titans
5. Dolphins

(All teams in my geographical area.)

[Gene Starwind]

I would go with the hometown team, but they're overrated to shit and everyone will want them, so I'll go with my next favs.

XBox

1. Colts
2. Chiefs
3. Ravens
4. Redskins
5. Bengals

[Sub-Z]

#1 Cowboys
#2 Cowboys
#3 Cowboys
#4 hmmmm lemme think Cowboys

Ok I am ready for the league!

[Goldeh]

1. Green Bay
2. Bucs
3. Colts
4. Dolphins
5. Falcons

[chrisphil1724]

I think I remember saying not to do what you are doing.

PLZ don't start with a team rankings a sign-up post will be made after a good number of poeple ok the rules.

We may just put the league up at a set time and have it be first come first serve. I don't even know if Scot is going to be in the league. That's about the only thing holding this back.

[Gene Starwind]

Meh, it don't matter that much if Scot joins, it's his choice to miss out on the fun.

[chrisphil1724]

Ok This is what I'm think. I'll start the league @ 9PM EST Sunday Night. 12 teams/8 weeks/3 days between games 4 teams make the playoff. First to come will get there team first. I'll try not to pick a top team or a team one of you like, (Lions or something I don't care if I lose). That ok?

[Gene Starwind]

Sounds good!

[Hendrix]

Works for me.

[Gene Starwind]

Be sure to post when you finish setting it up to notify us.

[jiujitsu35]

Guys forget about Scot ,I don't think we should worry about Scot playing or not I really don't care .I love what this game is all about so lets worry about starting this thing.

[Black-Ant]

Is it too late to join?

[Blackwolf]

No, there's still 5 slots open as of late last night.

[Black-Ant]

I will take the chiefs if know won has taken them

[agn]

Im in, JUST READ THIS.
from the espnforums

FOR ONLINE LEAGUES:
- no real schedule? thats pathetic
- no divisions? thats pathetic
- cant have 12 teams make the playoffs? pathetic
- Trades dont work - pathetic
- If someone drops they cannot be replaced - most pathetic thing ever
- if there is a disconnect, both teams get a loss - most pathetic thing ever
- commish cannot choose deadline, and you cannot play games ahead of time. When christmas time comes, I guess everyone will either leave their families, or take a 0-0 Loss. SO PATHETIC... commish needs to be able to set the schedule, and extend deadlines, and let people play ahead of time if they will be away for a week.


I have been an NFL2K fan since 2k2, and I do not care how much the game costs... I expect the features that are advertised to be FULLY FUNCTIONAL. trading does not even work, and I cannot believe that players who drop cannot be replaced. What were they thinking when they made that rule? Stupidity. All these things are vital, and even if it was just ONE of them, it would really uhurt onlines leagues... but these are all pathetic, and my online league is pretty much useless. A nice idea, ruined by someone missing an assignment... and someone definitely missed an assignment here, because there is no way that VC could have thought that this was a decent online league system.

[arefx]

Im in, JUST READ THIS.
from the espnforums

FOR ONLINE LEAGUES:
- no real schedule? thats pathetic
- no divisions? thats pathetic
- cant have 12 teams make the playoffs? pathetic
- Trades dont work - pathetic
- If someone drops they cannot be replaced - most pathetic thing ever
- if there is a disconnect, both teams get a loss - most pathetic thing ever
- commish cannot choose deadline, and you cannot play games ahead of time. When christmas time comes, I guess everyone will either leave their families, or take a 0-0 Loss. SO PATHETIC... commish needs to be able to set the schedule, and extend deadlines, and let people play ahead of time if they will be away for a week.


I have been an NFL2K fan since 2k2, and I do not care how much the game costs... I expect the features that are advertised to be FULLY FUNCTIONAL. trading does not even work, and I cannot believe that players who drop cannot be replaced. What were they thinking when they made that rule? Stupidity. All these things are vital, and even if it was just ONE of them, it would really uhurt onlines leagues... but these are all pathetic, and my online league is pretty much useless. A nice idea, ruined by someone missing an assignment... and someone definitely missed an assignment here, because there is no way that VC could have thought that this was a decent online league system.
ouch.... well this isnt the first time stuff like this has happened. I guess every one will just have to wait for it to get finished.

[The_Raven]

the espnvideogames.com forums are really bashing ESPN2k5. Some are saying they took so many steps back. Some say NFL2k3 was better than this "garbage". Even the hardcore fanboys are extreamly pissed off at VC and are threating them that they will also buy madden this year and return ESPN when madden comes out, just to show VC. I guess it's another year won by EA. But this time, dirty style, even the fanboys are pissed off. OWNED

[chrisphil1724]

Im in, JUST READ THIS.
from the espnforums

FOR ONLINE LEAGUES:
- no real schedule? thats pathetic
- no divisions? thats pathetic
- cant have 12 teams make the playoffs? pathetic
- Trades dont work - pathetic
- If someone drops they cannot be replaced - most pathetic thing ever
- if there is a disconnect, both teams get a loss - most pathetic thing ever
- commish cannot choose deadline, and you cannot play games ahead of time. When christmas time comes, I guess everyone will either leave their families, or take a 0-0 Loss. SO PATHETIC... commish needs to be able to set the schedule, and extend deadlines, and let people play ahead of time if they will be away for a week.


I have been an NFL2K fan since 2k2, and I do not care how much the game costs... I expect the features that are advertised to be FULLY FUNCTIONAL. trading does not even work, and I cannot believe that players who drop cannot be replaced. What were they thinking when they made that rule? Stupidity. All these things are vital, and even if it was just ONE of them, it would really uhurt onlines leagues... but these are all pathetic, and my online league is pretty much useless. A nice idea, ruined by someone missing an assignment... and someone definitely missed an assignment here, because there is no way that VC could have thought that this was a decent online league system.

That's why I know this isn't going to work, but everyone felt like trying. On the league page the teams are in two, six teams divisions. I don't know what they will do. It should take the top two teams from both divisions and have them play in the playoff but who know.

Trades did work in my first league.
http://www.idiot-gamer.com/images/games/trades.JPG
So we will see if they work here.

[agn]

I think waiting 3 days between games is lame. 3 max. Let's just get through a quick season now with minimal teams that can turnaround a game every 3 days. I think we could do a few weeks of the season on one saturday..NO?

[chrisphil1724]

We can alway bypass the 3 day wait time. If everyone get there games done in 3 hours the host could easily start the next week.

[XSuperSonic]

Sure Ill Volunteer.

[Blackwolf]

Tournaments and Seasons both work that way. For instance, in that tournament, I had a 3 day max, but we finished our games in like, two hours, so I advanced to the next week, which reset the three day timer. So it's possible to do a "quick tournament" like you can in Madden, as long as the admin is there to advance.

[Black-Ant]

:!: -- Warning Very long Post !!!

My Thoughts --

Well personally I think we are in the day and age of videogame football that everyone is will not be satisfied no matter what plus with the competition so high and the rush to get the game out first will kill quality also. NCAA was supposed to be the best football game ever when it came out people were PO'ed about the slowdown and still talk bad about that game today. ESPN for another example "Great Game" but with the early release and price drop may hurt quality in such as testing or programming (who knows). Just wait Madden will come out (and I have been a Madden Fan for years) and people will be pissed all over again and find that a lot of it may be filler (I don't know yet - haven't experienced this years version yet) but their past indicates since the release on the PS2 (fillers Galore) and Madden has never been exempt from "BUGS" but a lot of them have been exploited and people generally find this fun when they can exploit a BUG to there advantage (i.e.. lets drop back 50 million yards to let my receivers get open and then I will throw 25 to 50 million yards and hit my receiver (exaggeration by me of course)...that is not sim football to me personally).

All games have bugs but I think standards are high today. People expect to see the next great leap like what we saw from Madden 0n the PS1 transitioning to Madden on the PS2 and that is not going to happen till the nextgen consoles.

Just wait till next year when the other companies step back on the playing field and having a year to come up with something and yes the every intention is to dethrone the King EA's MADDEN NFL, which will make for an interesting year in late summer of '05.

But Like I said I am a Madden Fan and with the price drop of ESPN 2K5 it has given my chance to put my biasness against the 2k series aside and check it out. I have to say I enjoy it a lot. It is different were as Madden got stale with me and it has things that Madden doesn’t offer. I can’t wait for Madden to come out either because it sounds very interesting this year and they have added a lot (now I have to decide if I am going to buy it for the Box or the PS2 because there is a definite problem on the Xbox). But I will enjoy all three games this season and I can’t wait to see what next year will bring, maybe they will meet the consumers expectations or (not) they will be more than 3 games to choose from though. Just my thoughts on the whole thing,
Peace.

[Blackwolf]

League matches have started. Carps came in and filled our 12th slot. Your schedule is now up at the official leagues site.

[Gene Starwind]

I'll be out of town until Monday due to the Otakon, is there a time limit on the matches?

[agn]

wait...did i not get in??? Ah i tried to find it but it..ohh...nooo.

[Blackwolf]

I'll be out of town until Monday due to the Otakon, is there a time limit on the matches?

Yeah, I think he set it up as a three day limit...All the games must be finished on August 1st (next Monday).

We had signups for a week, Scot. ;P

[agn]

s'ok, i have this thing called...well you know...

[Blackwolf]

We figured you wouldn't pick up ESPN after Thursday anyway. It's okay.

Carps will lead your Pats to victory.

[chrisphil1724]

We figured you wouldn't pick up ESPN after Thursday anyway. It's okay.

Carps will lead your Pats to victory.

I don't think anyone is going to win. Leagues have been down for sometime now, and there not a dam thing we can do.

[DARRENS105]

How Do You Join A League?

[Gene Starwind]

Meh... none of the people I'm up against are on when I am. ><

Darren, go to the XBL menu that says leagues.

[chrisphil1724]

yea, as I said the timing of the league, and the way sign-ups were done wasn't right at all. The Madden Ps2 league, I know for a fact will be intive only. Meaning, no sign-ups. Don't call as we'll call you.

After trades didn't work and Players started randomly started jumping teams, a lot of the players in the League got pissied and stop caring.

[Carps]

I was in the last AGN league on ESPN, and was one fo the only ones besides G4Hendrix who continued to play our games. You know I'm in, if you start up a new leauge. Rules sound a.o.k to me. I'd like to continue on as the Pats if we drop the leauge, since Im currently them...

Ranking
1) Eagles
2) Patriots
3) Vikings
4) Falcons
5) Panthers

[Gene Starwind]

Meh that sucks. Oh well, I think a new league would be good.

[SaNkOn-TeSsOu]

I'd play

[Sub-Z]

You don't want any part of the beatdown I would lay upon you in 2K5. :)

[SaNkOn-TeSsOu]

You don't want any part of the beatdown I would lay upon you in 2K5. :)

you probably would pwn me.....

[chrisphil1724]

Sub lost to a team of White players.

[Sub-Z]

Yes but it is because I lost my nego Quincy who was so high on crack he had a better running rating than my running back. :)

[stupid_occult_ascendancy]

This forum sucks... ban me!