Palmeiro caught juicing. [Archive]

C0lin

08-01-2005, 07:49 PM

He will never get in the Hall of Fame now. He was always a consistant player, but he was never in the very upper echelon. He's only been to a few All Star games.

Conseco may be very dumb, but it looks like he's telling the truth, for the most part. I just know that MacGuire took them too.

SaNkOn-TeSsOu

08-01-2005, 08:21 PM

heh...he lied about it....

I guess we can pat McGuire on the back...at least he didnt lie....

Sub-Z

08-01-2005, 10:14 PM

I am the biggest Rangers fan here and believe Palmerio is a major fuckup for this and also I believe every word in the Canseco book. Also there should be charges against him for being a liar in front of a congressional committee. He lied every other breath and denied everything, but most of all. The man is completely incompetent for not discontinuing useage after testifying. That is just stupid especially after the claims he made in front of congress.

Pig

08-01-2005, 10:40 PM

C0lin

08-01-2005, 10:44 PM

He should still be allowed in the Hall of Fame. This has nothing to do with his 3,000 hits which have always been an automatic ticket to the HoF. Come on, he had the most hits in the '90's. He's always been underrated.

Steroids = homeruns
Steroids =/= hits

that's flawed logic. Steroids can make you run faster, helping him beat the throws to first.

Pig

08-01-2005, 11:44 PM

that's flawed logic. Steroids can make you run faster, helping him beat the throws to first.

I haven't seen Palmeiro get many infield hits. That's stretching it a bit.

CircleofPaper

08-02-2005, 12:01 AM

He should still be allowed in the Hall of Fame. This has nothing to do with his 3,000 hits which have always been an automatic ticket to the HoF. Come on, he had the most hits in the '90's. He's always been underrated.

Steroids = homeruns
Steroids =/= hits
Steroids = Cheating and Padded stats. He doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame after this. I don't care how good his numbers are. He cheated, and deserves to be made an example out of.

Ender

08-02-2005, 12:21 AM

Steroids = Cheating and Padded stats. He doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame after this. I don't care how good his numbers are. He cheated, and deserves to be made an example out of.

Just as Pete Rose broke a cardinal rule, so did Raffy.

Fuck em both, neither should be allowed in.
I think the roids should be an automatic ticket OUT of the game, just as Rose out ousted.

Cheating is Cheating, I don't care what it was supposed to improve, he still cheated.

All-Night John

08-02-2005, 12:34 AM

Steroids is not just about muscle mass and homeruns. He's got a great swing. But I think you can chalk up his longevity to PEDs. No one's been as consistent for so many years as Palmeiro. I'm guessing when he started to lose the bat speed, it was the drugs that kept him going.

Pig

08-02-2005, 12:36 AM

Steroids is not just about muscle mass and homeruns. He's got a great swing.

Exactly. Palmeiro has one of the most beautiful swings in the game. He'd hit homeruns regardless.

All-Night John

08-02-2005, 12:44 AM

Pig

08-02-2005, 12:59 AM

He'd have hit homeruns in his younger days, for sure. I doubt he's juiced his whole career. But not at this age. His number are all inflated because he's been able to keep the pace with PEDs. I doubt he'd have the numbers for the Hall without the drugs.

Also, in other news, Bonds isn't coming back this year (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2122194). Conspiracy theorists must love it.

I think he still would have made it to the Hall. He'd still have nearly 500 homeruns and 3,000 hits.

I love that Bonds is out. I hate that fuck to death. Now Pujols will finally win his much deserved MVP.

All-Night John

08-02-2005, 01:25 AM

I think he still would have made it to the Hall. He'd still have nearly 500 homeruns and 3,000 hits.
I sincerely doubt that. Wouldn't have been much point in the steroids to begin with. There's really no way to defend either position, anyways. Who knows how long he's been juicing? Who knows when his skills may have started to decline?

I love that Bonds is out. I hate that fuck to death. Now Pujols will finally win his much deserved MVP.
Or Derrek Lee. :eyes:

CircleofPaper

08-02-2005, 01:41 AM

It doesn't matter how long you've been using it. If you've used it, you should be punished. Period. None of this 10 day shit either.

And for the record, Palmeiro was more of a singles hitter when he first started out. So if I had to guess how many of those homeruns were because of the use of steroids, I would say 70%.
I love that Bonds is out. I hate that fuck to death. Now Pujols will finally win his much deserved MVP.
Yeah because Derrek Lee is not in the National League.

EDIT: Fuck, beatin' by John.

All-Night John

08-02-2005, 02:04 AM

It doesn't matter how long you've been using it. If you've used it, you should be punished. Period. None of this 10 day shit either.
I certainly agree with that. I only wish Bud had got the harsher penalties into place before this. This will probably give him the ammunition to do so.

And for the record, Palmeiro was more of a singles hitter when he first started out. So if I had to guess how many of those homeruns were because of the use of steroids, I would say 70%.
That's not entirely fair. His first full season he hit 41 doubles, which was 1 behind the league leader. A lot of people see doubles from young players as a sign of their power stroke just developing. Or maybe it was the 'roids that turned those doubles into homers. He did have 14 HRs the year before in limited time, at about 1 HR/ 15 ABs. That's better than his career average.

Like I said, he's got a swing to die for. Was the power always supplied by drugs? :dunno: But to keep it up so consistently for so long, I think he had some help there. I think he would've had a nice career without drugs. Maybe 350 HR, 2200 hits. Who knows? It's all speculation.

I think there's no way he gets into the Hall now, and rightfully so. If nothing else, his career will always be tainted, and he deserves it.

You know what's funny? Palmeiro, Bonds, Giambi, McGwire: All #25. Maybe they have some sort of secret club. :P

CircleofPaper

08-02-2005, 02:09 AM

I certainly agree with that. I only wish Bud had got the harsher penalties into place before this. This will probably give him the ammunition to do so.
Let us only hope.

That's not entirely fair. His first full season he hit 41 doubles, which was 1 behind the league leader. A lot of people see doubles from young players as a sign of their power stroke just developing. Or maybe it was the 'roids that turned those doubles into homers. He did have 14 HRs the year before in limited time, at about 1 HR/ 15 ABs. That's better than his career average.
Maybe he didn't start juicing until his rookie year?

Like I said, he's got a swing to die for. Was the power always supplied by drugs? :dunno: But to keep it up so consistently for so long, I think he had some help there. I think he would've had a nice career without drugs. Maybe 350 HR, 2200 hits. Who knows? It's all speculation.
Well there's no denying that. He's got a great swing. The problem is if you can't play with what you've got, and you have to go out and juice yourself up, I don't care how pretty your swing is. You cheated. You can be called the best ball player of all time, and I wouldn't care. If you're on steroids, you should have your numbers erased, and banned from baseball.

I think there's no way he gets into the Hall now, and rightfully so. If nothing else, his career will always be tainted, and he deserves it.
Agreed.

You know what's funny? Palmeiro, Bonds, Giambi, McGwire: All #25. Maybe they have some sort of secret club. :P
Don't get me started on those guys.

GBPackersfan

08-02-2005, 02:27 AM

I'd really hate to see him go to the Hall and not Rose, as steroid usage is a FAR bigger problem than gambling.

This really hurts baseball players' credibility, though. Just last week, people were praising Raffy for being such a great, humble player. Now, we find out that he was taking steroids, and it will further perpetuate the stereotype that all major leaguers are juiced.

Pig

08-02-2005, 09:39 AM

Or Derrek Lee. :eyes:

Derrek Lee is slumping like everyone knew he would. His average has dropped about 25 points in the past month. Pujols has been the most consistantly good player in the past five years by far. He'll continue to hit and Lee will wonder how the hell he did so good in the first half. Not to mention the fact that the Cubs won't make the playoffs and the Cardinals will have the best record in the NL.

All-Night John

08-02-2005, 03:25 PM

Derrek Lee is slumping like everyone knew he would. His average has dropped about 25 points in the past month.
21 points, kk. And most people wouldn't consider a month of batting over .300, 9 HR, 18 RBI, and 19 R a slump. And he's still better than Pujols.

Pujols has been the most consistantly good player in the past five years by far.
So give him the "MVP of the Past 5 Years." :eyes: He hasn't been the best this year.

He'll continue to hit and Lee will wonder how the hell he did so good in the first half.
Newsflash: He's still doing well. He's 12 for 25 his last 6 games. His power stats were still all there in July.

Not to mention the fact that the Cubs won't make the playoffs and the Cardinals will have the best record in the NL.
If the Cubs have a winning season and even come close to the playoffs, Derrek Lee's year will be far more impressive than Pujols. The Cardinals have the best record because they have the best team. Everything about them is better than the Cubs, especially their pitching, which has nothing to do with Pujols. It's Lee that's carried the Cubs the entire year.

Pig

08-02-2005, 07:40 PM

If the Cubs have a winning season and even come close to the playoffs, Derrek Lee's year will be far more impressive than Pujols. The Cardinals have the best record because they have the best team. Everything about them is better than the Cubs, especially their pitching, which has nothing to do with Pujols. It's Lee that's carried the Cubs the entire year.

That's not how it is. Remember in '98 when McGwire should have won MVP but didn't because Sosa's team made the playoffs? That's what it's like here. And things have changed with the Cardinals. They have four injured starters and Pujols continues to stay healthy, hit and carry this team. His stats aren't that much worse than Lee's so a playoff berth should earn him the MVP even if the numbers stay the way they are, and they won't.

Albert Pujols is the best player in baseball. He's proven himself time and time again. Lee has not. Don't even try and argue that.

MageMasher

08-02-2005, 08:27 PM

Now, i'm not a Cubs fan by any means...but Derrek Lee is the better player in the NL.

Pig

08-02-2005, 09:48 PM

Now, i'm not a Cubs fan by any means...but Derrek Lee is the better player in the NL.

This year, maybe, statistically but you can't tell me that he is the best player in baseball or any better than Albert Pujols. Pujols has proven himself for five years. Proven himself in the clutch. Proven himself at 3 different positions. You name it. Derrek Lee hasn't done any of that. You can't be the best player in baseball when you've played 3/4 of a season better than anyone else.

Ender

08-02-2005, 10:06 PM

This year, maybe, statistically but you can't tell me that he is the best player in baseball or any better than Albert Pujols. Pujols has proven himself for five years. Proven himself in the clutch. Proven himself at 3 different positions. You name it. Derrek Lee hasn't done any of that. You can't be the best player in baseball when you've played 3/4 of a season better than anyone else.

Pig, now, You know I'm a Cards fan, but in all seriousness, DL is having the better year. Pujols is the better hitter in general, but Lee is really tearing it up right now. Now, if he slumps at ALL, you and I both know that Pujols will catch up, as he is always consistent, whilst Lee is typically not as much so. Right now, they're pretty even, but in the long run, I think Pujols will pull out, even though Lee has a slight edge right now.

Don't get your panties in a twist.

Pig

08-02-2005, 10:44 PM

Pig, now, You know I'm a Cards fan, but in all seriousness, DL is having the better year. Pujols is the better hitter in general, but Lee is really tearing it up right now. Now, if he slumps at ALL, you and I both know that Pujols will catch up, as he is always consistent, whilst Lee is typically not as much so. Right now, they're pretty even, but in the long run, I think Pujols will pull out, even though Lee has a slight edge right now.

Don't get your panties in a twist.

I'm just saying, it's hard to say he's the best player in baseball. He's had the best season so far, sure. But to me, the best player in baseball has to prove themself for more than a year. The other thing is, the best player must do all the small things right. Now, I don't know about Lee but Pujols is a great, intense team leader who players defense and is a great baserunner. He hustles and he doesn't ever hesitate. He always knows what to do. He doesn't strike out a lot and he makes adjustments every at bat. These are things that the stats don't show and that I see watching this man player every night.

All-Night John

08-02-2005, 11:39 PM

That's not how it is. Remember in '98 when McGwire should have won MVP but didn't because Sosa's team made the playoffs? That's what it's like here.
You're right. McGwire should have won the award. Just like Lee should win it this year, even if the Cubs don't make the playoffs.

I also remember 2003, when A-Rod won it playing for a last place team, despite there being deserving players on teams that made the playoffs.

And things have changed with the Cardinals. They have four injured starters and Pujols continues to stay healthy, hit and carry this team.
And the Cubs don't have injuries? The Cardinals are an all-around better team than the Cubs.

His stats aren't that much worse than Lee's so a playoff berth should earn him the MVP even if the numbers stay the way they are, and they won't.
Thank you, Ms. Cleo. Why bother watching the games when we've got Pig here to tell us what will happen?

Albert Pujols is the best player in baseball.
Not this year.

He's proven himself time and time again. Lee has not. Don't even try and argue that.
Nice edit. How dare anyone disagree with your infallible proclamations?

Now, I don't know about Lee
So http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/5056/talk019ai.gif

You seemed to be confused about what the MVP award is. The MVP is an annual award. What you did last year, or the past 5 years, means jack shit.

Pig

08-02-2005, 11:50 PM

You're right. McGwire should have won the award. Just like Lee should win it this year, even if the Cubs don't make the playoffs.

I also remember 2003, when A-Rod won it playing for a last place team, despite there being deserving players on teams that made the playoffs.

And the Cubs don't have injuries? The Cardinals are an all-around better team than the Cubs.

Thank you, Ms. Cleo. Why bother watching the games when we've got Pig here to tell us what will happen?

Not this year.

Nice edit. How dare anyone disagree with your infallible proclamations?

So http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/5056/talk019ai.gif

You seemed to be confused about what the MVP award is. The MVP is an annual award. What you did last year, or the past 5 years, means jack shit.

You seemed to miss my last post about everything Pujols does. He is the most complete and best player in baseball. He does it all. Lee may have better stats but Pujols is a better player and his team is more successful which means he is MVP.

GBPackersfan

08-02-2005, 11:57 PM

Lee also plays very good defense and will likely be a GG winner.

And MVP is an individual award, not a team award, so I really don't see how team success should be factored into it (though I know the voters take that into account, just like wins for Cy Young, because they're dolts).

All-Night John

08-03-2005, 12:04 AM

You seemed to miss my last post about everything Pujols does. He is the most complete and best player in baseball. He does it all. Lee may have better stats but Pujols is a better player and his team is more successful which means he is MVP.
And you seemed to miss my post:

Now, I don't know about LeeSo http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/5056/talk019ai.gif

You fully admit ignorance to what kind of player Lee is, yet you try to argue why Pujols is better. Genius.

MageMasher

08-03-2005, 12:05 AM

And you seemed to miss my post:

You fully admit ignorance to what kind of player Lee is, yet you try to argue why Pujols is better. Genius.
Game.Set. and Match.

+rep.

All-Night John

08-03-2005, 12:06 AM

Lee also plays very good defense and will likely be a GG winner.
He's second to Helton, but it wouldn't surprise me to see him get it.

Pig

08-03-2005, 12:20 AM

I knew Lee was good defensively. But I also know he's a quiet, low-key guy so I'm not sure how much of a team leader he is. I also know he strikes out much more than Pujols does and isn't really known for making adjustments.

First, Bonds is overrated for four years and now Derrek Lee has a fluke offensive season.

When will Pujols get the credit he deserves?

GBPackersfan

08-03-2005, 12:26 AM

No one's saying Pujols isn't a good player, because he is, and I agree that he's been the most consistent. But past seasons should not affect this season's MVP, as, as John said, it is an annual award. It doesn't take into account what their past seasons were like, because they don't matter when considering the MVP.

Also, Bonds overrated? Ha!

Just Blaze

08-03-2005, 12:34 AM

from now on flukes and Beltran must be mentioned in the same sentence.

Pig

08-03-2005, 12:41 AM

Also, Bonds overrated? Ha!

Barry Bonds is the most overrated player in baseball. How can you give someone MVP when they don't play defense or hustle and are a cancer in the clubhouse? I'm sorry that doesn't make any sense to me at all. Especially when Pujols was much more productive than Bonds. I don't care how many walks the man has, Pujols ACTUALLY produced more. Don't tell me Bonds would have produced more if they had pitched to him. They didn't!

Pujols: 256 RBI's + runs
Bonds: 230 RBI's + runs

I'm just saying, Albert Pujols is the best player in baseball. Maybe he's not having the best season statistically, but he is the best PLAYER in baseball.

All-Night John

08-03-2005, 01:19 AM

I knew Lee was good defensively. But I also know he's a quiet, low-key guy so I'm not sure how much of a team leader he is.
Right, you're not sure. So there goes that argument.

I also know he strikes out much more than Pujols does
So? What difference does that make? An out is an out. He also grounds into less double plays than Pujols. That makes up for any run differential that might possibly be lost due to Ks.

and isn't really known for making adjustments.
You know this, how? And what difference would this make? Seems to me he's made quite a few adjustments coming into this year.

First, Bonds is overrated for four years and now Derrek Lee has a fluke offensive season.

When will Pujols get the credit he deserves?
:smt022

Also, I abhor Bonds as much as the next guy. He's a scumbag cheater. But come on. 2004 stats:

VORP
Bonds - 142
Pujols - 103.5

Win Shares
Bonds - 53
Pujols - 40

Runs Created, OPS+, EQA, and RARP
Bonds - 184, 260, .454, 131.9
Pujols - 161, 175, .344, 78.6

It wasn't even close. Bonds has been better every year. And Lee is better this year.

I'm just saying, Albert Pujols is the best player in baseball. Maybe he's not having the best season statistically, but he is the best PLAYER in baseball.
That's your opinion.

C0lin

08-03-2005, 01:27 AM

I have no idea what those stats are.

MageMasher

08-03-2005, 01:35 AM

The stats don't lie.

All-Night John

08-03-2005, 01:42 AM

lol. Okay, if you care:

VORP - Value Over Replacement Player. The number of runs contributed beyond what a replacement-level player at the same position would contribute if given the same percentage of team plate appearances. Basically, crunches all the offense into one easy-to-use number.

Win Shares - Sort of like VORP, crunches all the numbers, including defense, into a number that represents how many wins a player actually contributed to his team. 3 WS represent a full win.

Runs Created - Number of actual runs a player contributed to the team.

OPS+ - OPS (OBP + slugging) measured against the league average, and adjusted for ballpark factors. 100+ is above average.

EqA - Equivalent Average. A measure of total offensive value per out, with corrections for league offensive level, home park, and team pitching. Includes baserunning stats.

RARP - Runs Above Replacement, Position-adjusted. Compares EqA to that of a replacement-level player who makes the same number of outs and plays the same position.

Back on topic, Palmeiro tested positive for a potent steroid (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2123113). This wasn't some false positive from some otc supplement.

C0lin

08-03-2005, 01:51 AM

I never got what slugging % was.

All-Night John

08-03-2005, 01:55 AM

It's meant to be a measure of power. It's calculated by total bases/at bats. So, SLG = (singles + 2(doubles) + 3(triples) + 4(homeruns))/ABs.

C0lin

08-03-2005, 01:57 AM

It's meant to be a measure of power. It's calculated by total bases/at bats. So, SLG = (singles + 2(doubles) + 3(triples) + 4(homeruns))/ABs.

oooooooooooooooooooh. It kinda makes sense now.

All-Night John

08-03-2005, 02:02 AM

Yeah, it's just a measure of how many bases a guy gets per AB. That's an easy one. Don't even ask how they calculate VORP. :shock:

Pig

08-03-2005, 10:15 AM

I guess you just skipped over my post which said why I think Bonds is overrated. The funny thing is, everyone is crucifying Palmeiro in this thread for using steroids but defending Bonds when he's blown up like a balloon thanks to steroids. Again, he doesn't play defense, he doesn't hustle and he's horrible for team chemistry. You can't be MVP when you do that shit.

Tom the First

08-03-2005, 10:24 AM

I thought this was about masturbation.

All-Night John

08-03-2005, 03:35 PM

I guess you just skipped over my post which said why I think Bonds is overrated.
Uh, no. The numbers clearly show that he's not.

The funny thing is, everyone is crucifying Palmeiro in this thread for using steroids but defending Bonds when he's blown up like a balloon thanks to steroids.
I guess you just skipped over my post where I called him a scumbag cheater. :eyes: All we have are the numbers, and by the numbers, Bonds was amazing. Until things are proven are proven otherwise, his numbers stand.

Again, he doesn't play defense, he doesn't hustle and he's horrible for team chemistry. You can't be MVP when you do that shit.
Yet, he is. Funny.

Pig

08-03-2005, 03:48 PM

Yet, he is. Funny.

But not deservedly. Unfortunately the voters no longer take defense (or hustle) into consideration. If they did, Bonds wouldn't have won his last three. Hell, if defense accounted for as much as offense did, Mike Matheny would win it every year.

CircleofPaper

08-03-2005, 03:58 PM

Pig

08-03-2005, 05:03 PM

Bonds has passed his drug tests, Palmeiro did not. This fact is set in stone. All that that surrounds Bonds at the moment is suspicion, not actual fact.

Oh, and I like the idea that you're bitching about how MVP candidates don't play defense. I guess that's why they win Golden Gloves. Ironically if Pujols wins this year, he'll be in the club of 'undeserving' MVP winners, since Lee is clearly the better player in the NL.

Well, at least it'll make up for the last four years.

And considering Bonds ADMITTED he took steroids, I think it's safe to say it's a fact he did unless he's even more of a moron than he lets on to being.

All-Night John

08-03-2005, 05:37 PM

But not deservedly/
Stats say otherwise.

Unfortunately the voters no longer take defense (or hustle) into consideration.
Bonds' defense is not a detriment to his team. Any runs that may have been saved by an above-average defender at his position are overwhelmed by his offense.

Hell, if defense accounted for as much as offense did, Mike Matheny would win it every year.
Defense isn't as important as offense. An above-average offensive player is more valuable than an above-average defender. Thoough I suppose if you had it your way, a Cardinal would win every year.

Pig

08-03-2005, 06:16 PM

Stats say otherwise.

Bonds' defense is not a detriment to his team. Any runs that may have been saved by an above-average defender at his position are overwhelmed by his offense.

Defense isn't as important as offense. An above-average offensive player is more valuable than an above-average defender. Thoough I suppose if you had it your way, a Cardinal would win every year.

Coming from someone with a Manny Ramirez avatar, I wouldn't expect anything different.

You are undermining the importance of defense. Remember Brooks Robinsons? Ozzie Smith? They were known for their defense. They were just as valuable to their clubs as a power hitter is these days. It's just that times have changed. All we want as fans is the longball. No one gives a shit about defense anymore which is why players like Albert Pujols and Mike Matheny should be given more credit than they are since players who take pride in their defense are a rare find these days. It's all about the player's image and since defensive stats aren't shown as much, the selfish players (like Ramirez and Bonds) decide to forget about that aspect of the game.

Out of curiosity, who do you think has been the best player in baseball the last five years (including this year)?

CircleofPaper

08-03-2005, 06:29 PM

Well, at least it'll make up for the last four years.

And considering Bonds ADMITTED he took steroids, I think it's safe to say it's a fact he did unless he's even more of a moron than he lets on to being.
Show me where he said 'I took steroids."

Please.

GBPackersfan

08-03-2005, 06:30 PM

It's not exactly hard to play 1B defensively.

And strong offensive numbers heavily outweigh great defense. Unless Bonds was dropping 75% of the flyballs hit to him, his defense doesn't really matter.

Pig

08-03-2005, 06:33 PM

Show me where he said 'I took steroids."

Please.

Are you serious? Did you miss the whole "cream, clear, I took them unintentionally" thing? If so, I'll find it for you.

[edit] Here's one story: ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594)
Here's another one (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/03/02/BALCO.TMP&type=printable) but it doesn't have Bonds admitting anything.

All-Night John

08-03-2005, 06:51 PM

Coming from someone with a Manny Ramirez avatar, I wouldn't expect anything different.
I don't even know what that's supposed to mean, but gj.

You are undermining the importance of defense.
No, I'm not. An excellent defender only saves a certain amount of runs over an average defender. Those runs are made up for by offense. An excellent hitter/average defender is more valuable than an excellent fielder/average hitter.

All we want as fans is the longball.
Maybe that's all you want, but I want high OBP, OPS, and EqA.

No one gives a shit about defense anymore which is why players like Albert Pujols and Mike Matheny should be given more credit than they are since players who take pride in their defense are a rare find these days.
You act like Pujols is some great defender. He's average. He's no where near the first baseman that, say, Helton is.

It's all about the player's image and since defensive stats aren't shown as much, the selfish players (like Ramirez and Bonds) decide to forget about that aspect of the game.
Manny leads the league in outfield assists and has made 1 error this year, kk.

Out of curiosity, who do you think has been the best player in baseball the last five years (including this year)?
I don't know. I don't feel like looking up the defensive metrics of the past 5 years. I can tell you that Brian Schneider has been a better catcher than Matheny the past 3 years.

CircleofPaper

08-03-2005, 06:55 PM

Are you serious? Did you miss the whole "cream, clear, I took them unintentionally" thing? If so, I'll find it for you.

[edit] Here's one story: ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594)
Here's another one (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/03/02/BALCO.TMP&type=printable) but it doesn't have Bonds admitting anything.
Bonds told a U.S. grand jury that he used undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," which he received from personal trainer Greg Anderson during the 2003 season. According to Bonds, the trainer told him the substances were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a pain-relieving balm for the player's arthritis.
So he used a substance that his trainer told him would help his arthritis, and it turned out to be steroids. Gotcha. Yet he never tested positive for it, nor was it banned by Major League Baseball. Gotcha.

Still doesn't take away from his great numbers. And it still doesn't have him coming out saying 'I used steroids.' either. Do I want Barry in the Hall of Fame? No, Because I hate Barry Bonds and the entire Giants organization.

Maybe that's all you want, but I want high OBP, OPS, and EgA.
Amen.

All-Night John

08-03-2005, 06:58 PM

I also want a high BABIP rate. ^_^

Pig

08-03-2005, 07:13 PM

I don't know. I don't feel like looking up the defensive metrics of the past 5 years. I can tell you that Brian Schneider has been a better catcher than Matheny the past 3 years.

:smt005

Wow, just wow. Complete horseshit.

And no, I don't just want homeruns. But that's what the fans want to see in general. The homerun. The most exciting thing in sports.

Can you tell me one player who's been better overall than Pujols over the last five years?

GBPackersfan

08-03-2005, 07:22 PM

Pig

08-03-2005, 07:30 PM

I'd consider Varitek to be the best catcher in baseball, if that's what you're discussing.

And Pujols probably has been the best player in baseball the past 5 years (IF we're excluding Bonds due to injury), but how did we end up discussing that anyways?

I don't even remember. Read earlier in the thread. I'd consider Matheny to be the best defensive catcher in baseball and probably Varitek to be the overall best.

CircleofPaper

08-03-2005, 07:53 PM

I'll take my boy Pasada over bother. Don't care about stats though :D

Pig

08-03-2005, 08:01 PM

I'll take my boy Pasada over bother. Don't care about stats though :D

Yeah, I'll take Yadier Molina and his rocket arm. Even though I know he's not the best. Still a hell of a catcher defensively and catching on offensively too thanks to Pujols.

Sub-Z

08-03-2005, 08:36 PM

Why are you guys having a fit about who is better? They are all on the roids anyway. Canseco has spoken!

Burr

08-03-2005, 09:20 PM

The homerun. The most exciting thing in sports.

Naw. That'd be a breakaway.

CircleofPaper

08-03-2005, 09:43 PM

Naw. That'd be a breakaway.
That would be true if this country still cared about Hockey.

Pig

08-03-2005, 11:55 PM

Naw. That'd be a breakaway.

If I didn't fall asleep during the rest of the game, maybe.

All-Night John

08-04-2005, 12:14 AM

:smt005

Wow, just wow. Complete horseshit.
2003 Defensive Win Shares
Schneider - 10.60
Matheny - 6.76

2004 Defensive Win Shares
Schneider - 10.4
Matheny - 8.1

2005 Defensive Win Shares
Schneider - 5.7
Matheny - 5.4

I'm sorry if stats may destroy your perception of reality.

Can you tell me one player who's been better overall than Pujols over the last five years?
Nope. Never argued otherwise, and can't with Bonds being out this year.

And Pujols probably has been the best player in baseball the past 5 years (IF we're excluding Bonds due to injury), but how did we end up discussing that anyways?
Within the steroid talk, I mentioned that Bonds was out for the year, and Pig came crying about the MVP award.

Naw. That'd be a breakaway.
GTFO, hockey boy.

Best catcher this year is Varitek, with Mauer second. Last year, it was I-Rod or Kendall; it's debatable. 2003, Javy Lopez.

Pig

08-04-2005, 12:16 AM

2003 Defensive Win Shares
Schneider - 10.60
Matheny - 6.76

2004 Defensive Win Shares
Schneider - 10.4
Matheny - 8.1

2005 Defensive Win Shares
Schneider - 5.7
Matheny - 5.4

I'm sorry if stats may destroy your perception of reality.

No, your problem is that you rely too much on stats. There's no stat for such plays as blocked balls or handling the pitcher.

All-Night John

08-04-2005, 12:18 AM

:rolleyes:

I bet you watched every game Schneider caught, too? That's how you can argue about something other than stats, right?

Burr

08-04-2005, 12:18 AM

That would be true if this country still cared about Hockey.

Go take your regurgitated ESPN takes elsewhere. :rolleyes:

Pig

08-04-2005, 12:49 AM

:rolleyes:

I bet you watched every game Schneider caught, too? That's how you can argue about something other than stats, right?

No, but I've seen the man catch and he's no Mike Matheny.

All-Night John

08-04-2005, 01:01 AM

Me too, and I say he's better. So there.

Pig

08-04-2005, 01:10 AM

Me too, and I say he's better. So there.

All a matter of opinion I guess but I've definately heard a lot more acclaim on Matheny's part than Schneider's defensively.

Yadier has the better arm either way. He's thrown out 20 of 31 with 8 pickoffs. :shock:

CircleofPaper

08-04-2005, 02:20 AM

Go take your regurgitated ESPN takes elsewhere. :rolleyes:
Worst comeback in sports history.

All-Night John

08-04-2005, 03:46 AM

All a matter of opinion
Exactly. If you can't argue the stats, all you're arguing is opinion.

I guess but I've definately heard a lot more acclaim on Matheny's part than Schneider's defensively.
Maybe because you watch Cardinals games? Maybe because Schneider played for the hapless Expos? The media doesn't always hype the best players.